THE BRADSHAW BOYS ARE LAUGHING WITH SEX AND THE CITY, NOT AT IT

Three "relatively grown men" venerate the iconic series in a podcast for seasoned fans and newcomers.

In the summer of 2017, Cory Cavin, Kevin James Doyle and Jon Sieber had an idea. The three New Yorkers were routinely bumping up against the hypnotic pull of HBO’s iconic comedy, Sex and the City, and they resolved to do something about it. 

“Katie, my wife, would always put it on in the background, and I would be doing stuff around the house and slowly notice it kind of gravitationally pulling me in. At first I’d walk by and be like “Oh, that’s kind of fun,” and then eventually I was sitting down and watching entire episodes with her, and Cory was like, “You know what show is really good? Sex and the City!” and I was like ‘I’m going through that same thing right now!’” says Sieber. 

On a balmy, drunken New York night at the Dream Hotel in Midtown, the Bradshaw Boys turned their curiosity into a podcast where “three guys watch their way through Sex and the City for the first time ever, mostly.” Since the first episode aired in February of 2018, what started as an amusing hobby has parlayed into a panoply of Sex and the City content including an Instagram page with over eleven thousand followers, interviews with stars like Sarah Jessica Parker and Kristin Davis, and a thriving Patreon. 

“The Bradshaw Boys” is not just a podcast anymore. It’s become a special little corner of the internet where fans, old and new, are welcome to join a modern celebration of the seminal HBO show, proving that a female-driven sex comedy is anything but niche. I spoke with the Boys via Zoom about Sex and the City fandom, the swagger of Ron Livingston, what the show gets wrong about New York, and Carrie Bradshaw’s column. 

Tahnee: To get into the origins of the podcast - when you say, “it’s a podcast where three men watch Sex and the City for the first time mostly,” which part of that statement was the angle here? Was it that you were watching it for the first time and it’s this huge show that everybody has seen, or was it that you guys were coming at it from a male perspective?

Cory: We all had different ways that we sort of came to the show. I remember I had watched Sex and the City a little bit through an ex-girlfriend and I just like shows about New York. I had like three episodes of Sex and the City that I would go back to. And, it was a thing of like “Oh, I like watching this show and sitting down with a glass of red wine and feeling like a lady watching this show.” Like, really feeling my New York self. And then, Jon and I talked about that, and he had a similar experience to it, kind of. 

Jon: Yeah, you know I got married and had always kind of heard about Sex and the City but never really watched it, just kind of knew it existed. And so, we were just like joking, like we should watch that for the first time all the way through and talk about it and like, it was kind of a joke because Katie was like “That would be the the best podcast for me because you guys are my best friends and you’re talking about my favorite TV show” and she got really hyped up about it and then you know, we kind of talked about how this could be something really interesting for female listeners - to listen to a bunch of idiots talk about their favorite show and try to understand them. And, I think the idea kind of built on itself and you know, when we had guests on, we got to meet the coolest people and hear their perspectives and their relationship with the show.

Tahnee: How do you guys define your role on the podcast? What are each of your positions? 

Kevin: Jon has a degree in Philosophy and is just a very wise friend of ours and so I think we all knew that he asks probing questions and he likes getting down to the truth of things. I feel like if I have a role, it’s to be overly confessional and honest about weird sexual experiences and thoughts that I have. 

Cory: There’s a reason that we get [Jon] to do the episode recap every time because, neither one of us would be as good at doing it-

Jon: Well, usually you’re cooking while watching and Kevin is like, taking pictures and thinking of Instagram posts.

Cory: That is not, untrue….But also, you are the one who is holding up a clock, letting us know where we are. I think, Kevin and I can have that part of our minds but I feel like that part of your mind works the best. It’s the reason you’re the one out of us that owns businesses. I think in general, I can play a lot of sides and so, I think I do that here. I’m not overly confessional. 

Jon: We have different roles on air and off air. And to categorize people as Sex and the City characters, I think on air, Kevin is definitely the Samantha/little bit of Carrie. He is the one who is going to talk about the personal stuff, the private stuff, nothing’s off limits. Cory is definitely the curated, Charlotte vibe of the three of us. You’re the one who’s going to make sure the sound is perfect and the mics are set up right. And I, by nature, am just very analytical, like Miranda. I think I want to understand stuff as best as possible but also with that comes the timekeeping and the corralling element. I think the two of them have such a great rapport, sharing jokes and bits. You guys just also know so much more about pop culture and music than I do. You’ll start talking about TV shows, like “This actor was in this,” and “This actor’s in this!” and I don’t know any of that shit. You guys watch Sex and the City and you’ll recognize like fifteen different characters, and so I feel like sometimes you guys can go off on that and just out of wanting to be included in the conversation I’ll be like “Maybe we should talk about this instead.” 

Tahnee: So when you posted the first episode, how did you feel? Were you like, “Here goes nothin!” or “That was fun,” or?...

Kevin: This sounds cheesy, but it’s totally true - we especially know it now from other projects we’ve done - but, anything that is worth doing you should do really the best quality possible. So we tried to make sure it was professional quality. But, besides that, assume if noone gives a shit about it, make sure that you’re proud of it and you’re having fun and I think that was one hundred percent it. There’s a billion podcasts out there, and there’s already even like four or five Sex and the City podcasts. You know, it’s not like people were like, “This is what everyone’s been waiting for!” (Laughing) So, honestly, we just agreed to ourselves, let’s just finish the series and just do this and put it up and work hard and see if people end up liking it. 

Jon: We didn’t even think in a million years we’d be able to get anyone from the show on. It was more of just a project to get together, have fun, watch this great show and so like, the response we’ve gotten from the actors in the show has been completely overwhelming. 

Kevin: Do you know what is actually the coolest, I think, is how many responses and messages we get. We really do feel like we’re watching it with a group of people. And I think that may have been some of the secret sauce to why people have enjoyed it. People are like “Get ready! You guys are coming up to this!” and it’s like, people are on the journey with us. And the listeners are more tour guides to the experience than we are to them which I think is cool. 

Tahnee: Well that kind of dovetails into another question I have which is a two parter. What’s the most surprising thing you’ve discovered about fans of Sex and the City, and secondly, is it more fun to watch with someone who’s seen it before, or do you like to watch it with people who are like “OK? Let’s do it?” What’s more fun, and what’s surprised you about those mega fans?

Kevin: It’s really fun to reach out to someone who you just didn’t think they were a mega fan, and then you find out, you’re like “I wonder if they’ve even seen the show,” and then they’re like “Ok, so I’ve seen it seven times.” On the episode you could tell that we were already big fans of Jen Kirkman, but it’s funny that we would love to have Jen Kirkman on just as a comedian and a TV writer not having any idea that she’s obsessed with the show. So, I think that’s made the watching experience more fun in the room because sometimes it can feel a little awkward to sit with a stranger and watch TV quietly. When they’re super fans, they settle into the couch, make a drink, and they’re like “This part is so fucking funny” and they’re laughing and more engaged and they’re just like, “We can’t believe we’re watching it with you three dudes, this is so fun!” So those experiences have been really really really special. 

Tahnee: And I think as a listener you can tell when the watch was really fun for you guys.

Cory: Yeah. I think that we’re all kind of surprised that - I want to say this the right way - I think we’re all surprised that the show is as good as it is and that we like it so much. But, it has become a thing. Like, it was Jon’s birthday last week and I sent him a birthday video and I was like, “Jon, you’re my Miranda,” like it’s become this life defining thing. And I think with the fans, what’s interesting is that it’s almost like, you’re coming into a cult of people. It’s like when you meet people who are super into Lord of the Rings and they’re like “I’ve read all the books, I’ve seen all the movies, I’ve read The Silmarillion…” It’s a weird bonding thing with people and I did not expect that. 

Tahnee: It is, I agree.

Jon: I think what surprised me the most is how open the Sex and the City fanbase has been. I think with fandom a lot of fan bases can be closed off and elitist and you kind of have to earn your stripes. I think we got a little bit of pushback from some fans early in the beginning-

Tahnee: Really?

Jon: Not a ton, but like, for all intents and purposes, we have no business being a part of it. We’re not your traditional Sex and the City fans. Three straight dudes who have never seen the show. I know most people who are fans of the show are super fans, they’ve seen it a billion times. That hasn’t stopped anyone from being super inviting, super pumped for us, super excited for us and that’s been a breath of fresh air. When there’s other fanbases, whether like Cory said - Lord of the Rings or a sports team - it’s like, they’re not as inviting as the Sex and the City fanbase. And to answer your second question, I think that translates when you’re watching it with someone who is a super fan. When they are on the edge of their seat and so excited. You know, when you love something and you’re showing your spouse or your friend this really cool TV show that you love, there’s an energy that is created from that and you can definitely feel that when you’re watching with those fans. 

Kevin: I think that people were worried. The thing that Jon was talking about - there were a few people that, on the internet and a few in person, that I think they thought we’d be a little more cynical about it. I think our desire with any of the projects that we do is to bring people together and not just shit on things. It’s such a silly thing to be like “This show is for girls. This show is dumb,” when literally, it’s one of the most influential television shows of all time. And so, I think we’ve really tried to come at it with a little bit of reverence because it’s like, hey, if your show is sold out or on the lists of the best things ever, it doesn’t matter if you get it. You should learn why.

Tahnee: Right! Even if you weren’t liking it, there are things about it, the craft of it is pretty crazy. Watching the show, I know you guys say that spoilers are kind of off the table, since you know, it’s been a while since the show aired and stuff, but, do you feel bummed that you know some things or do you feel like - like, sometimes when I know the ending of a movie or a show I kind of like to see where the clues are and how they got to the end. Like, do you feel like watching it knowing things are gonna happen has sort of enriched the experience or do you feel kind of cheated a little bit?

Jon: This may be offensive and I may alienate listeners...I don’t necessarily know if the strength of the show is in its narrative arc. I think the strength of the show is in the characters and the relationships between the women so I’m not convinced that knowing that she ends up with Big or knowing that Charlotte and Harry ended up together necessarily ruined anything or made me feel sad about anything. Unless there’s some big M. Night Shyamalan twist that none of us have heard of, but - 

Tahnee: It was all a dream…

Jon: Like holy shit, it was Capote Duncan the whole time! (laughs) I don’t necessarily know if the story element of it is super important as the relationships and how they handle love, and experience life with each other. 

Cory: The show’s been around for over twenty years, statute of limitations is off. There have been things that I’ve found out that I was...I wasn’t bummed when I found it out, I wish that we could’ve experienced it live. And that’s the stuff that I get a little sad about but I agree with Jon in that, it’s not in the destination, it’s in the ride of the show. 

Tahnee: What is your theory as to why this show is so successful and so lasting? People are finding it twenty years later.

Kevin: I think there’s a lot of hijinks, but, once everything settles down, they are really honest friendships no matter how crazy things get and I think even with television dialogue, people are like, “I have a friend like that.” I think that this show is aspirational in that they talk about all the things that you wish you could talk about, with the people you wish you could talk about them with, and you either want that or you have those people in your lives. And I think that’s what makes it lasting and universal, not just like a game changer of a show that’s like “We talk about CUM!” There’s probably other salty shows that were edgy that did that, that had a crazy scene but it’s like ok, after that scene, there’s Miranda and Carrie talking about this crazy experience they had in a way that’s really truthful and beautiful.

Cory: I agree with Kevin. I think the fact that the show was shot on location and not on sets, it does a thing where they set up archetypal characters and archetypal friendships kind of the same way Friends did - but it’s different because they were more realistic about a specific place, which is New York City, and them shooting on location actually built this romance of a place. And that helped kind of round the oeuvre of the show a little bit. It almost kind of takes you on a journey with those people where you’re like, “I wanna have that experience in this place with those people.”

Tahnee: Yeah, it’s so specific that it becomes universal, I think. The sex comedies of my generation are the Apatow model, where it’s like, a young person who doesn’t really have their lives together yet, who’s trying to figure it out, and it’s kind of nice to watch a show about adults who’ve established lives but they’re still trying to figure out the romance part of it. How has watching it been as far as having the males roles be sort of swinging door, in and out, every episode rather than the female roles? Does it feel refreshing now in this day and age to watch that happening?

Jon: I think it’s been extremely refreshing. It’s been really fun seeing those archetypal boyfriends portrayed on the show. And I think we joke about how Big and Aidan and Steve are just like, such outlandish cartoon examples of what men are and I think it’s just, fantastic. But, as far as the one-off boyfriends, I really like seeing them, most of the time, get egg on their face and look like the idiots. I think you still don’t see that much. Seeing the dumbass guy who lives with his parents eating chicken wings and smoking pot, or the twenty something guy who lives in the dirty apartment. Those things are all fun and I think really helps engage us as a male watcher. We watch this show all the time and you see that person, and you’re like “That is one of our friends.” 

Cory: Yeah, I think it’s great. It’s great for fun and for comedy. I feel like it would’ve been so fun to write some of those boyfriends. Coming up with some of those ridiculous things like the face licker and stuff like that. And it’s also interesting that maybe they’re all based on real people. And, I think as guys, it’s almost more entertaining to watch that than it would just be different female characters….maybe that’s narcissistic just wanting to watch other guys, I don’t know (laughs). It’s really really fun to watch and like Jon said, it’s educational. I mean, we’ve talked about the Berger thing, and we’ve said, that’s the most realistic boyfriend, probably, women have interacted with. And there were some things that he did that I was like (grabs forehead) “Ohh….shoot,” I’ve done that, and I think I’ve learned from it, but seeing it you’re like “Oh man…” They hit home on some dysfunctional things. 

Jon: Dude, the double flip off on the voicemail…That’s a Cory move. 

Cory: I’ve done the double flip off, I’ve reached across and eaten her dessert. I’ve done all those things. 

Tahnee: That’s a perfect segue. I wanted you guys to speak more about why you think [Berger] is the most realistic and maybe who is the most unrealistic of the boyfriends. 

Kevin: We don’t work on Wall Street, so we don’t interact with a lot of Mr Bigs. But, I would say in our milieu of people, I know a lot of butthurt, slovenly writer types that think they’re the shit. He’s a little too self involved and I think he cares about his work a little too much. I do think in the more artistic worlds we run in, you do see a lot of that. And then also, I don’t think I’m the worst parts of Berger, but I could imagine having been on a date talking about what I want out of my career enough to where they’re like, ”You know what? You’re...great?.” (makes a shooing motion).

Tahnee: I think the Every Outfit girls called him a “toxic beta bro.” Which is pretty apt. But what I always remind myself is that, Ron Livingston is a genius! How did he get legions of women to hate him so much. Like, he’s so good at it. 

Cory: I know! And if you watch him in Office Space, he’s not hateable. 

Tahee: No! Swingers - he’s adorable!

Cory: No, he plays a little down and out in those things but he’s not hateable. He does a really good job as Berger. 

Kevin: And I would say one thing about him is like, I think artist types get praised a lot in movies and TV shows. And there’s not that many examples of someone who is a successful writer who is still so insecure and takes it out on people and I think there’s something really unique in that. 

Tahnee: Do you think that there is a common thread between the men that Carrie dates, like Big, Aidan, Berger, you’ll soon meet Petrovsky. Do you think she’s kind of random or do you think there’s a common thread?

Cory: I think you could find a common thread. There’s some sort of aspirational, go-getterness about them...Well, I’m forming this theory as I’m talking...If you look at it in the boyfriends who have a longer arch, even Ray King - owns a jazz club. Anyone who owns their own bar or club in New York is not a loser. There’s him. There’s Big, obviously, super successful. Berger, even as much as he’s struggling and thinks he’s not as great as he is, still has something going on for him, has an agent-

Jon: Aidan’s very successful.

Cory: Aidan owns a furniture store.

Tahnee: They’re all kind of their own boss, I guess. 

Jon: They all have something that they’re pursuing that’s outside of just her. Which is kind of interesting. 

Tahnee: Do you think that the Big and Aidan camps would be so divided if Carrie hadn’t cheated on Aidan?

Jon: I think it doesn’t have to do too much with her cheating. They are so opposite of each other as people. He really is the antithesis of Big, other than the success and being his own boss. I think the way he dresses, the fact that he’s got a dog, he’s got the upstate house, the way they have him talk and treat her. It’s so much different. So, I think it’s the people that just relate and like that more than Big. I think it also might be a generational thing. The people that are a little bit older, they wanted their Big. They wanted their master of the universe, finance person who was always in a car and smelled like rich mahogany and cigars. And the younger people, like my wife, she’s in her mid-thirties, when she was watching for the first time when she was in high school/college and she was so infatuated with how Aidan treated her. Truly treated her like a princess. So, I think there’s a few different things that forced those camps. What do you guys think?

Kevin: I think they happened upon two people that are not polar opposites but they’re opposites enough that it creates really interesting, strong opinions. I don’t know. I think a lot of credit to the actors too. You can write someone as good as you can, but if they don’t embody someone that you just naturally want to be around... 

Cory: I don’t know if that split the camps, but I think one thing it did is it allowed them to access this other side of Aidan, of him being passionate and hurt. Whereas, if she cheated on Big, I don’t think Big would act that same way. And it gives a whole other side to Aidan that I think puts certain people in his camp even more. 

Tahnee: So, there’s an ongoing dialogue about the fifth season being the weakest, and I want to know if you a) agree so far and if b) I want to know if you noticed anything different in the show after 9/11 because the fifth season is the first season they shot post 9/11 and I’m wondering if the tone of it stuck out to you at all. 

Cory: It’s interesting that it is the season that people say that about and I don’t know how to place the tone. But it’s interesting that it sticks out and it’s the first one shot after 9/11. I don’t know if I would say feels off, but feels different. 

Jon: I feel like whenever they leave New York it feels really weird. Like when they go to LA it feels weird, and I think in the fifth season they go to Atlantic City, which that episode, it was fun watching it with Ben Weber, but I feel like that episode was not the strongest. And then there’s the one where they’re on the train the whole time which was kind of weird. I feel like the season definitely did feel the most disjointed, although there were some good episodes. So I would say yes, it was the weakest but still a great show and still fun in so many ways. The Atlantic City one was definitely one of the worst episodes…

Tahnee: It’s very odd…

Kevin: I think within the context of a season, week to week, I guess I can understand you need those release pedals to not just have the same thing, but I think sometimes some of those are miscalculations of why people like the show. The reason why people love it is for these much deeper things that sometimes a trip does not allow for the time to bond or connect on a deeper level. I think whenever they leave the city, the writers don’t take the opportunity to write what they would actually be doing emotionally, they get more hijinks driven. Which is fine, maybe that’s needed, but it doesn’t ever ring true to me.

Tahnee: A lot of the conversation around Sex and the City is that “New York is the fifth character” and I think I agree with that and I think it’s what makes it great. Do you think the portrayal of the city is accurate? And do you think the portrayal of dating in New York is accurate? I know it’s the 90s and early 2000s but in general do you think it’s an accurate portrayal?

Kevin: I think the portrayal of dating is as accurate as any show has ever done. I think that is one of the strengths. People know what it’s like to be in love or meet someone and they have one thing that’s wrong with them or miss each other at different times. I think it’s canonical as far as not needing to be married at age thirty five, it’s ok to wait later to have kids. Like, whatever version of modern life that we’re in right now, I feel like this is potentially the number one thing that you could study to be like “This is what 1990-2020 dating is like,” pre-apps. This would be your submission for what the world was like. 

Jon: As far as New York, I think they do a good job demonstrating what New York is like for people like those four women. One of the big things that they really miss on New York is that New York is really neighborhoody. It feels really small. When you live here, and if you live in a neighborhood for like two or three years, you know your laundromat guy, you know your deli guys, you know your wine store owner. You see those people every single day. And so much of city life is not going to the new club or new restaurant - although it’s really fun to do that stuff - so much of your city life is sitting and having a thirty minute conversation with the guy who owns the wine store or looking at the apartments that my laundry mat guy owns. You know those people so well and see them all the time, and they kind of miss on that neighborhood feel. 

Cory: Or you have the paradoxical relationship where like, my wine guy is always playing great music, and I go there a lot. It’s like a block from my apartment and they have great cheap wine. And everytime I go there I try to make a conversation about whatever music is playing, and he NEVER engages. And I’m like “What the fuck dude?” 

Jon: One of my favorite memories - there is this bodega near Dean Street. It was Slope All Natural Foods. There were several nights at like two in the morning where I would be Facetiming with the guy’s brothers in Yemen. There was one time where Harlen tried to fit ten Fruit By The Foot in his mouth at the same time, and literally there was a whole Yemeni village watching him stuff thirty feet of fruit in his mouth at the same time. And I would still see those guys on the street everyday. They’d be like “Fruit By The Foot Boy! What’s up!” That part is so key to New York that everyone has. 

Tahnee: Is there a show out now you think kind of gets it right?

Kevin: I would say that Modern Love - I’ve only seen like four episodes on Amazon - but Modern Love I feel like is good at being like, “Here is a love story and here’s the one person in New York that revolves around it.” I’m thinking of the doorman episode. I think that is a very fairytale but realistic portrayal of like, your doorman can be someone who’s really important in your life. Sometimes your doorman - I don’t have a doorman, but - those types of people are a member of your community. 

Jon: The last thing, and people talk about it frequently but I think it’s so important, is the loss of the subway. The subway is such an important reason as to why there’s this underlying current of anxiety in so many New Yorkers. It is the reason why some New Yorkers are mean, some New Yorkers are in a hurry. New Yorkers are fed up standing next to a bunch of people and I think without that, they kind of miss this level of angst that’s always present-

Tahnee: Yeah, Carrie rides the subway one time, and you don’t even see it. She’s just, emerging. 

Jon: Yeah, all four of them would be riding the subway multiple times per day and they’d be frustrated about that frequently. 

Cory: I also feel like New York was a totally different place then and I think New York is a little bit the way it is now because of that show. And other factors but, I think the Disneyfication and the Sex and the City-fication of New York made New York a little bit the way it is now. I think Girls is a TV show about normal, upper-middle class girls coming to the city. That’s what Shoshanna is. She is a girl that moves to New York because of Sex and the City. 

Tahnee: Are you guys planning to go back and rewatch again?

Jon: It seems to be what people do with this show, it’s like comfort food for so many people. The initial plan is to rewatch Sex and the City but this time with a more informed perspective of what’s going to happen and then also try to look at some other episodes or like some other TV shows, like the Golden Girls, and watch the top 20 episodes of a TV show like that. Because, we really love watching these things and engaging with the fanbase of these shows that have a die hard following and then exploring them from a  male’s perspective.

Tahnee: I would definitely subscribe to the Blanche Boys, for sure. 

Kevin: Yeah, I think we want to keep Sex and the City as our homebase and literally just go from the beginning and go back through, and try to get bigger guests and try to find different ways to keep on making it interesting. 

Tahnee: OK. My final question is...Is Carrie Bradshaw’s column any good? Do we think it’s good?

Corey: That is such a good question...Ah man. So, it’s for the New York Star, right?

Tahnee: Yeah, which is the New York Observer, but yes.

Cory: Ok, it’s the New York Observer. Because, that’s part of it, what paper is it in...

Jon: Can someone make the argument for it not being good?

Cory: Yeah, I can. I’ll make the argument for it not being good. 

Tahnee: A debate style, I like it. 

Cory: Part of this is gonna be like snobby and kind of bougie too, but I would say like... I think given the paper that it’s in, it would be...I don’t think the audience of the paper that she writes for would be interested in anything that goes super deep.I bet she doesn’t get more than 500 words, or 750 words, so that means that it’s going to be very quippy. I think at best, her stuff is cute and thought provoking, but I don’t think it can ever be transcendent because I don’t think, even if we get the best of Carrie, the constraints don’t allow for that. 

Jon: Dude. “For sale. Kids shoes. Never worn.” All you need is six words to tell a great story, man. 

Cory: (Laughing) Saddest story ever. 

Jon: It HAS to be good! The amount of people that come up to her and praise her, the amount of accolades that she’s gotten, book deals, she’s walking runways, she’s a socialite because of it. There are enough credible people that are telling her how fabulous she is. She’s getting asked to write and be featured in Vogue magazine. I can’t get on board with an argument that it’s bad. I don’t know. 

Tahnee: So would you read it?

Jon: Absolutely not! No. I don’t read anything that doesn’t have dragons in it. That’s my first rule of reading. 

Cory: Wait, so question for maybe all three of you. I agree that she’s getting recognized all over town, Vogue asked her to write. Yeah, she’s not writing crazy long think pieces, but apparently she has something... “For sale. Baby shoes. Never worn.” Do you think Carrie Bradshaw could write anything near as poignant as that?

Jon: (Laughing) No. I was just arguing that you don’t need a lot of words to tell a good story. 

Cory: (Laughing) I don’t know if I could either. 

Kevin: I would say this. Her column would’ve been the thing that set every other magazine, every other newspaper to be like “We need a dating/sex columnist.” I remember staying up late and watching Dr Ruth, but she was just an old, weird lady. But Carrie Bradshaw is sexy, and she’s talking about dating and sex. And I feel like if it were a real month to month column, people right now would be like, maybe it wasn’t the best, but only because we are all the beneficiaries of what she created and how much ground she broke to be like a cool, working, accomplished, sexy woman in her thirties writing about sex, and it changed the game. So, I think she is like a trailblazer in that way and I do feel like Sex and the City in that way is the same thing. Like, any show that honestly deals with sex now in a comedic way and in an honest way pays a bit of debt to Sex and the City because that just was not the norm. I feel like if you wrote a sex book now-

Jon: Wait, Kevin. Were you staying up late watching Dr Ruth for like, sexual reasons? Or information reasons?

Kevin: Information reasons. 

Jon: It wasn’t like watching the Girls Gone Wild commercials? You were just like, curious?

Kevin: Well they were on at the same time, you would just click back and forth to get the best of both worlds. 

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This interview has been edited and condensed.