A CONVERSATION WITH A LONDON PASTRY CHEF

“You can curate how you want people to see you, and when you can manipulate something like your food, you can manipulate how people see you, and your brand, and people's perception of you through your food.”

As somebody who has not stepped foot inside a restaurant since March 1st, I’ve been curious about the state of the cafe. The word cafe is an umbrella term for a kind of space that means so many different things to so many people. But in light of the pandemic, the cafe has become a homogenized space of transaction. You get in, you get out (unless you’re lucky enough to score a coveted patio table). I miss a leisurely visit for a coffee without the strain and anxiety of dodging a deadly virus. The service industry will undoubtedly evolve under the restrictions presented by COVID-19. For some, it means the end. For others, it’s been an unforeseeable advantage. Adriann Ramirez is the Head Pastry Chef at Fink’s Salt & Sweet in East London, a cafe that has seen more positives than negatives under the current circumstances. A self-taught baker, Ramirez has worked in kitchens across the globe including Tartine in San Francisco and Claire Ptak’s Violet Bakery. We discuss the impact of COVID-19 on the service industry, the maw of food trends and ethics, tipping culture and the value of seasonal fruit. 

In what ways has the cafe changed to retrofit the restrictions of the pandemic? Is it just a matter of slowing down, or just changing to take out? What were the stages of adaptation?

So, we closed when they told us too. We had a very interesting journey because our main site has been closed since last October, almost a year now, because of a flood that we had. Once we opened again, we were able to do renovations to fit what we wanted to do. We were kind of already known for selling homewares, and candles, and olive oil, like gifts you can buy. So we kind of decided that we would be a shop and a take away cafe. But you know, all of our entire cafe used to be seats and tables so we took them all away and we basically have a perspex screen that separates us and a counter, and see-through shelving that has all our products on it and it kind of creates a barrier between us and the customers. The customers shop in a much smaller area and nobody stays inside and we hand everybody their stuff out the side door. 

Do you know the costs of those changes? What were the expenses to adapt that way?

I think our biggest thing was getting stock in. I know our perspex screen cost like two hundred pounds. It wasn’t cheap. We got two refrigerators that have all the take away we make in house. 

Has the customer behavior changed since the beginning of the pandemic? That could mean like, frequency of visits, or even just a little more rude? (laughs) Have you seen any differences?

No, I think everybody was really happy to have us back. People don’t come to Highbury, Finsbury Park to go to Fink’s. We’re not a destination. We are very much your local place. So, I think because nobody was leaving their neighborhood, like no one is going into central London anymore. No one is going super far to have dinner or have breakfast or get a coffee, no one is going to work, we have so many people working from home, we have become a bit of a hot spot for people to come and get everything. So, the way we changed and adapted our menu has been really profitable for us and our customers have been really kind to us for the most part. Obviously, we have people who are like “I don’t have a mask, can I come in anyway?” And we’re like, “No. But what you can do is we can help you out on the side.” We try to never turn away customers. 

Would you guess that destination places are probably suffering? As opposed to a community spot?

Oh yes, definitely. I would say anywhere in central London is going to be suffering. For the most part, London is made up of neighborhoods and there’s a real sense of community in these smaller neighborhoods and so, any of the bakeries that I know of I think they’ll all be well attended by people who are very close to them. 

Do you feel like the changes you’ve had to make are sustainable for employees? Do you feel like they’re shouldering more of the burden than the customer? Or do you think it’s not really more, it’s just a pivot?

I’d say it’s a pivot. We’ve been making more money than we have in a long time, which is very strange for us because it feels like we’re doing less. We have less interaction with the customers, so it feels so different. When it’s busy now, we never have more than two people in the building. We’ll have a line of people outside, which can seem daunting, but for the most part I never feel like that, at least. 

So you’ve worked in cafes in the US and the UK at this point. Do you find any differences in cafe culture? Customer differences or just working differences? 

I mean, definitely, every place is different. It doesn’t matter what sort of cafe you work at, no matter how you’ve been trained, you have to learn specifically how that cafe runs. I think the biggest difference in cafe culture in countries is, America is so heavily obsessed with tipping culture, and customer service is on another level in America which is just not a thing here. So, you know, it’s really nice if people tip me for making them a coffee but it’s very rare if it happens. Whereas, I think in America, if you don’t tip your barista it’s rude. So, then instead of paying four dollars for your latte, you're paying five dollars for your latte every day. A latte for us costs two pounds ninety, which is a lot of money for people. So if people can spare us ten cents, twenty cents, thirty cents it’s really nice. But since COVID, nobody tips us. 

Is that just because there isn’t an interaction?

Exactly. There’s no customer service. We make their coffee, they leave. We also don’t take cash anymore. 

Do you care? (laughing)

It’s totally a give and take. When you compare it to working in an American restaurant, it’s literally embarrassing. But like, a year ago when I was serving people in the restaurant, if I left on a Friday night with twenty pounds, I was so happy. And that was like, twenty pounds three days a week, so I’d like “Oh, sixty pounds! I can pay my groceries with that!” Obviously, in America, some people pull like two hundred dollars in tips a shift, but you’re taxed on those whereas we’re not. I mean, you’re still making loads more money but, it is a give and take because now I don’t have to deal with any of these people. We have to deal with so much less. So, it would be nice to have sixty extra quid every week but for the most part I’m happy to just have a very simple existence and not have to deal with people (laughs). 

Yeah. I always have that pressure when I’m in a coffee shop or in a bar tipping, because it’s like...how do you tip on a pour? And I can, so I do it, but it’s like, “Is this enough?” because my glass of whatever is this much. Like is it twenty percent, is it a dollar a drink? 

I mean, listen. When I go back to America and I see all of my friends acting like insane banshees when they’re like, “Ok! What is thirty percent!?” And I’m like “Bitch! Thirty percent? You think they’re getting thirty percent of my??” No. No, no, no. I’m going to put what I want to put. As a server who’s worked in America and the U.K., this is outrageous. I wouldn’t want anybody to be agonizing over what to give me. Also, in the U.K., it used to be 12.5 percent is added onto your check as optional service. And you’re like “Oh my god, it’s done for me. I don’t even have to think about it. It’s just added on.”

I was gonna ask, is it a higher minimum wage in the UK or gratuity is already done?

Usually, gratuity is already done. It takes the pressure off of the customer. Obviously, if it’s in bad service and you want it taken off, you can absolutely get it taken off. And if you want to add to it, you’re more than welcome to. Also, me knowing that 12.5 percent is going to be coming to me off of every table that I take tonight is very comforting. As opposed to being like, “That customer didn’t tip me anything and then that customer tipped me just enough.”

There was a restaurant in Brooklyn, when we lived there, we saw it go from a regular model to a gratuity free model, and the prices just went up but you didn’t tip. They were just paying their waiters living wages - what a concept. And the service was always impeccable, it didn’t suffer for it. It’s always been a weird thing to me, because you know, when you’re tipping off of the price of a large bill, and the reason people say you should tip is because the waiters aren’t making that much per hour, you have to kind of compensate with your tips. It’s like, yeah, but then you think about people that are working at a McDonald’s or something, they’re literally making seven dollars an hour and they’re not getting tips. 

Yes. It’s elitist. It’s completely elitist. 

It’s weird. And the tipping model has roots in slavery, and it’s very fucked, but it’s interesting to think of it in terms of it changing the culture of a cafe. Because I also wonder if that model, if “tipping culture” if you will, kind of leads to the culture we have in America where it’s like “I want to get my coffee and get out,” and in other places people want to sit down and drink it and be there for a little bit. I just wonder if there’s a correlation, because the more time you spend with someone-

You feel more compelled to tip them.

Yeah. OK so. How do you come up with recipes, what’s your process and has the process changed since the pandemic?

I think I’ve wanted to gear things to be easier to package, that’s for sure, but for the most part it hasn’t changed a whole lot. The way that I choose my recipes is mainly on seasonality, and so I’m always thinking about what fruit is in season and what vegetables are in season. So I have recipe books that I trust and that I use religiously. And then, once I try them I adapt them to my taste more than anything. So that’s pretty much how I choose my recipes. I have very loose parameters in which my bosses have me working in. They ask me, “We need a gluten free thing. We want a vegan thing if possible. Something chocolatey. And then, we really like your banana bread so can you keep making that.” And those are my parameters.

Is that based off of them looking at purchases? 

It’s that and just knowing our customers. Just knowing that people in London are vegan, we have vegan customers. Or knowing we have customers who are gluten intolerant, or are buying things for people who are gluten intolerant. So, basically, I think about that sort of thing when I’m recipe searching and adapting recipes. I use this really great brownie recipe from Tartine, but I wanted to make it gluten free, so I just use a gluten free flour instead and it doesn’t affect it and I’m able to make a really good brownie and it be gluten free. I use buckwheat flour. I love the flavor of the nuttiness that a buckwheat flour can give a recipe and that’s naturally gluten free. Or I use things like polenta and things like that that are naturally gluten free that give different textures and flavors, and from there I’m able to really make some things that I really like to bake. 

Do you ever feel like you have blind spots because your training is all experiential and self taught?

Absolutely. I think the first two years of having this job, I felt like a complete imposter. Complete imposter syndrome. I take comfort in the fact that a lot of my friends who work in really amazing bakeries and work as head bakers at some of the best bakeries in London and San Francisco and in LA, they are also self taught. Cooking and the cooking world and the baking world is very much like, yes you can go to a great school and get taught things and you’ll learn knife skills and you’ll learn how to batch bake or whatever, but eventually you will need to get into a kitchen. And the kitchen is where you get your experience. The kitchen is where you learn how to cook under pressure, the kitchen is where you taste things and you know how each kitchen works. If anything, my taste and the way that I develop my recipes, I get my inspiration from many places as opposed to me thinking, “Ok, back to my schooling.”

What do you like about baking?

I mean, I’m an artist and you know, I love that baking, there is a certain creativity to it - especially in the kind baking that I do and the kind of role that I have. I really get to choose what I want to make and I get to choose how it looks and I get to choose how much effort I put into each thing, so while it’s not a kind of creative art, I do feel there’s a creativity to it. I love how sharing food brings people together and I think as a child food was not an important thing in my family. You know, we ate. My mother was not a great cook. She cooked food for us because she had to, but it was nothing that was overly ornamental. It wasn’t anything ornate. It just wasn’t part of her nature, she just doesn’t care about that sort of thing. But once I grew up and I left my hometown and I was exposed to different foods, I all of a sudden found that there was a lot of joy in cooking. Like, I have this real obsession with roasting fruit. I don’t know why, but like, I now take such pleasure in like, the beauty of a peach. Or like, the first strawberries of the summer. You know what I mean? Like, my favorite things are like “Oh my god, it’s autumn and I can now start using pumpkin because it’s finally in season.” Or, like pink rhubarb, like forced rhubarb, is the most romantic thing in my head. There’s almost this amazing romanticism that I’ve been able to attach to the foods that I cook with. For example, forced rhubarb which is something that is native to Yorkshire, was something I would’ve never been exposed to but it’s grown in candlelight. It’s so amazing that they’re grown in complete darkness and the only way you can grow it to get that hot pink color is by complete darkness. So when they’re harvesting it, it’s all by candlelight. And it’s so Victorian looking and they’re still doing it today. And it’s really expensive to use but like, the flavor is amazing. And I roast it with blood orange juice, which is also seasonal at the time, and a bit of sugar and some orange zest and vanilla and you get this amazing hot pink roasted fruit. And it’s like, every scent.

I love that. Do you think that cooking seasonally makes food more exciting? Do you feel like we should have access to food that isn’t in season when it’s not in season or do you think it’s worth just waiting for foods to be in season? Because I think, there’s almost like a moral issue with it-

Absolutely.

Because these foods, they have to go through this extremely strenuous traveling process for us to enjoy a mango or whatever all year round. And I guess, there is something kind of poetic about it but it’s also like, maybe this is the more ethical way of cooking. 

It is. It is. It’s another reason why I’ve become obsessed with British fruit and British things that are in season because I know that it’s coming from 400 miles away as opposed to 5,000 miles away, therefore the carbon footprint of that strawberry is going to be totally different. And also, the flavor between a Chilean strawberry and a strawberry grown in Kent - they’re worlds different. 

Literally. 

Exactly. Literally. When you taste a fruit that is in season and has just come down the country, it’s so special. It’s totally different. 

That kind of segues into the question - do you think food is political?

Absolutely. You know, this is a conversation I have all the time with my friend who is a chef. I think it’s political, absolutely. My grandma was a field worker up until her 50s. She worked the fields all of her life, since she was a teenager, to support her family. And the conditions that they work in, they’re terrible conditions. They’re completely exploited and taken advantage of, and their worth is only by how much they are able to produce that day. So, yes, it’s political. Also in the sense of restaurants and cuisine is extremely political. Who is allowed to make a fine dining experience out of Chinese food? It’s very elitist. Why do we see Chinese food as something that’s really something only for take away and we don’t really want to spend a lot of money on Chinese food, Indian food, or Mexican food - these are all seen as street foods. But French food is fine dining. And once you start working in the kitchen and you start understanding how much products cost and how much a vegetable costs, when you start knowing how much ingredients cost - everyone’s taking the piss! And then you start to think about who’s able to create these fusion restaurants, right? There’s a woman named Thomasina Miers in this country and she’s a white woman, she’s very posh. She went to Mexico to be “inspired” by the cuisine there, came back to the UK and started this chain called “Wahaca” and it’s fucking offensive to me as a Mexican. And also, just the fact that, you know, would a Mexican be able to get this sort of success? Would a Mexican be able to start a company like this? No. Because people don’t respect Mexican food like that and the fact of the matter is, people don’t respect Mexicans like that. Same thing with Chinese food. 

I like asking the question “Is food political?” and hearing the answers because I feel people like to use that phrase as like a catch all for a really pedestrian argument about “price” or “immigrant stories” or something but it’s so much bigger because the harvesting and the growing and the eating and the selling of food can be very violent, or very restrictive or exploitative. 

Also you know, it’s a very misogynistic environment. Very homophobic. Racist. Kitchens are some of the most dark places I’ve ever worked in. 

Yeah. Pastry chef jobs in the U.S. are typically dominated by women. Executive chefs, sou chefs, they’re very male. But pastry is one of the only corners of the culinary world that are mostly women. Do you have any thoughts as to why that is and how has it felt to enter that space as a queer person?

Yeah, that was always the narrative I was given. I think it’s just always been seen that like, doing pastry is a feminine thing. If you go to France, it’s a very different experience. Top pastry chefs are men and they are fiercely masculine. Coming into this world as a queer person, I mean, it is very strange. I think I’ve had a different trajectory than most people, for sure. I’ve had very little kitchen training and kitchen experience before I was the head pastry chef of a place. I just had a lot of intuitive, natural ability because I’ve been baking my entire life, not professionally. I also worked at Tartine Bakery which is a pastry and bread bakery in San Francisco and most of the bread bakers were men. It’s like bread baking is really seen as like, a man’s job. It’s like really male dominated. And when you see the big wigs in the bread industry, like my former boss Chad Robertson or like my friend Richard Hart, those are like really manly men. 

Why bread? Do you think that it’s like, this is the manly version of pastry?

Bread baking is seen as a skill. Bread baking is like, this is practical, it’s a skill. And it’s like really a sort of physical sort of skill to have. That’s not to say a woman can’t do it, I know a lot of female bread bakers, but it’s definitely dominated by men and not men like me. It’s manly, masculine men. 

Like lumberjacks. 

Oh yeah. Especially in San Francisco. 

Do you think it has something to do with pastry being pretty?

Pastry is pretty, and you have to have a very delicate touch with pastry. It’s a skill in the sense of like, you’re working in a patisserie and you’re making tons of the same thing to look impeccable.

What are some trends that you’re seeing in baking right now? What are the ones you like and what are the ones you hate?

I really hate these kinds of like very elaborate cakes - like massive, tall cakes, loads of buttercream and then they always have kind of a drizzle thing on (circular motions)-

Like an Instagram ready cake-

Like those Instagram cakes, they really gross me out. I would hate eating one of those things. 

It doesn’t have to be in baking, it could be in food too. 

People have this obsession with seeing like, “Can you believe this place makes a burger with a Krispy Kreme donut, four patties, cheese and it’s covered in Animal style sauce!?” And you’re like “I don’t want to believe it but you’re showing me a video of how it’s made and now I have to believe that it’s something,” and I really wish it wasn’t a thing. That’s also like those Tastemade, “Now This” videos on Instagram that I’m constantly being exposed to. I think the worst one is when people make burritos out of cotton candy and shove them full of sprinkles and ice cream and adults are supposed to eat it. That is fucking vile to me. I hate it. I would say something really cool in English cuisine right now is this sort of, paring it back and doing really simple things. Like having a dish that’s just like, really nice olive oil from Spain and a green sauce and fresh ricotta. That’s the entire dish. I’m so obsessed with a really simplistic, pared down dish. Like the most seasonal tomatoes. You can get black Iberico tomatoes right now, and that’s just in olive oil with a few sprigs of marjoram and some fresh ricotta. Like it’s so painfully simple yet it’s so delicious. 

Do you think the pandemic is going to prompt any new trends? Do you see any coming from the way restaurants have to operate right now? Maybe we’re going to simplicity for the ease of the kitchen. 

Well, in England we’re officially in a recession, but I think we’re also about to be in the worst depression of the 21st century. So a lot of people will lose their jobs and then also we will have to adapt to making things that aren’t that expensive because people won’t have the expendable income like they did before, so eventually we’ll have to learn how to adapt to that. Obviously take away meals, like getting ingredients sent to your house and making them at your house is a thing. I don’t really see the point in that. I’d rather just go grocery shopping. But, I think it’s too early to tell really. I think everyone’s just trying to keep their businesses afloat in any way that they possibly can. So I don’t know if trends have arised out of this, except creating take away full menus. 

And dishes that work after transport. Things that aren’t destroyed by cooling off. 

Exactly. It’s so weird, we get take away from an Italian place and our pizza, low key or rather high key, arrives cold every single time. But - our pasta always arrives boiling hot.

Interesting…

I’m like, surely they have pizza technology! I’m like you know what, fuck it, let’s just get a Domino’s pizza! Actually I’m hardcore craving a Domino’s pizza-

Oh my god. I like to get a jalapeno white sauce one…

That’s really bougie for a Domino’s! At Domino’s????

Yeah! And I watch them, I watch the little meter. And I’m like, go go go! 

Me too! So do I!

But Derek will not eat Domino’s so I haven’t had it in years. 

Same, with Daniel. It’s so sad. I like a Domino's pizza. I like a plain pepperoni pizza, but I don’t like it the night of. I like it the day after. 

Oh no. I’m all about fresh. I don’t like leftover pizza to be honest. 

I don’t like pizza that’s been in the fridge. I hate that shit. But pizza that’s been left out all night.

I feel you. I feel you.

Images courtesy of Adriann Ramirez.

You can find Adriann on Instagram @adriann.ramirez.

This interview has been edited and condensed.